ResEdChat Ep 69: Exploring White Accountability Groups and Racial Justice in Residence Life with Dr. Kathy Obear

Crystal Lay:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Roompact’s ResEdChat, where we highlight cool people who do cool things and talk about cool stuff in residence life and college student housing. I’m your guest host, Crystal Lay, and I use a she/her series pronouns.
We’re going to do a little time-machine exercise. We’re going back to 2004, my first job out of grad school at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. We did a lot of intentional work talking about identity, and that was caucus groups intergroup dialogue. But one of the things that really stood out was the opportunity to do professional development and attend a social justice training institute. That experience solidified my personal and professional passion and interest in learning more about racial identity. It’s also where I met our guest for today. I will let our guests introduce themselves.

Kathy Obear:
So honored to be here, Crystal. Thank you so much. And I can’t believe it’s been 20 years, almost. I have to breathe. So, I’m Kathy Obear. I use she/they pronouns and the chance to be able to talk about Res Life and housing because that’s how I started. I came out of student affairs, worked Colorado State, Miami of Ohio, and then before I went full-time consulting in 1987. So I’ve actually been doing equity work and anti-oppression liberation work more recently. Those early years were kind of diversity, like, “Can’t we all get along?” And so it’s really was a social justice training institute with people like Jamie Washington, Bernard Wallmer, Maura Cullen that I grew with you to understand, to look at dynamics of race and whiteness, and white privilege, and systemic oppression in ways that I only looked at as a queer person, as a female identified, grown-up person. That’s what I cared about when I was in Res Life and working. And I didn’t necessarily… I know I did not focus on race. So I’m excited to see what we talk about today.

Crystal Lay:
Same, thank you. And even then, I don’t think we were using the word inclusion, right? It was still very much like diversity, multiculturalism, I mean, so just the evolution of language. And I think this ebb and flow of how much we can or do talk about these different topics and the safety to do so has been really fascinating, I think, and scary at times. And so I wanted to talk to you specifically about whiteness because I saw that you have your latest book. Yes.

Kathy Obear:
I’m so excited. Oh, hold on.

Crystal Lay:
Thank you. Thank you. So Leading White Accountability Groups: Create Racially Inclusive Teams and Anti-Racist Organizations. So Kathy, can you start by defining what is a white accountability group?

Kathy Obear:
Other people might be familiar with the term white caucus, white affinity space. I remember when I went to my first one, probably late 1980s, when I was in my doc program at UMass Amherst, I was like, “I didn’t want to be with the white people. I didn’t know it was going to happen. I don’t think I said a word. I wanted to get back in a mixed-race group of folk of color because that’s where I wanted to be seen with, aligned with, wanted friends with because I want to be a good white. I want to be liked by the people of color.” Unfortunately, I think many white folks are still in that developmental place of if I can just have my best friend who’s Black, then people won’t think I’m racist. And so it took me a long time to develop the courage to start to do the inner work.
So what is a white accountable group? It’s a confidential learning community space where white-identified folk, white adjacent folk, because you might be multiracial, you might be indigenous, and whiteness is a part of your heritage and/or your belief system. So to come together, not burden folk of color and indigenous folk, not to have you all have to teach us and do that career-impacting emotional labor to have us take responsibility to recognize, unlearn the racist attitudes, behaviors, the belief in whiteness. The white culture is the only right way. Some people call it white supremacy culture that Temo can work. And to have us do our own work, and to be honest, these have to be pretty facilitated well. This isn’t just a group of white people coming together. “Let’s read a book in an article and have a guilt fest and feel better,” or, “Let’s just come and get more woke intellectualized and go out and be the white savior.”
It’s really doing our own inner healing work to get rid of that internalized dominance. A sense that whiteness, white people are superior, better folk of color deficit, indigenous folk are deficit. And to really create capacity to partner with folk of color, follow the leadership of, listen to, believe, and how do we collectively co-create a climate in our unit, in our residence hall, in the policies and practice of a whole housing division so that we attract and retain culturally competent or racially diverse leadership, mid-management supervisors, student staff, Res hall leader. That’s the goal, so that we truly can serve the increasingly diverse populations we’re being asked to serve.

Crystal Lay:
Wow. Now, you covered a lot, right? That is-

Kathy Obear:
Sorry.

Crystal Lay:
No, no. This is good stuff, because I think you got it. The question that came up for me was this perception of the group versus the reality and what it can be. And so for me as a Black woman, if I hear, “Oh, there’s going to be this white accountability group,” I have questions. Kathy, I got all the questions.

Kathy Obear:
Please.

Crystal Lay:
And so I think… And you addressed this. I think it was chapter two in your book where you talk about if you have this group, how do you navigate the perceptions versus the reality, and then how can folks be transparent about the purpose of this group.

Kathy Obear:
What I like about the book is iconic. I think it’s A to Z. So you don’t just jump in and put up a flyer. It’s you thoughtfully, maybe gather a bunch of white folk, two or three, that want to be co-conveners, and then work collaboratively with folk of color, indigenous folk, whether it’s the system EDI folks, whether it’s the housing EDI, but folks that are committed, and it’s part of their responsibility. Now, I think all leaders, it’s our responsibility. But probably even at NAU, there are folk who are doing equity inclusion, diversity work and so partner with and say, “This is what we’re thinking of doing, and don’t go teach us how to do it, but it’s like here’s…”
And in the book, it’s like, “Here’s some of the learning outcomes we want. We want people to recognize our race’s beliefs, attitudes, behaviors. Get the courage to interrupt them when they see it in themselves, and others. Be able to look at policies with an anti-racist lens.” So real practical skills, this is what we want to do because what we notice is we revolving door with folk of color, indigenous folk we hire, our students. Yes, we might have the same number of students of color indigenous students, but if you look at perseverance, so the climate, the culture, our program, our services and here is Res Life Housing in general, we don’t know how to do roommate selection. We don’t know how to do roommate conflict with a race lens.
What I mean by that is to make sure that racism, whiteness are on the table, changing our policies and practices for hiring, promotion, supervision, coaching. So that’s what we want to do is skill up white people to do that. And to be honest, if folk of color or indigenous folk are not skeptical, then they might deserve a space to look at internalized racism because the thought of a group of white people coming together scares me if I don’t know who’s facilitating or if they’re committed to dismantling racism in themselves as well as systemically.
So having collaborative conversations, continuing to say, “Can we circle back with maybe some of our learning objectives to see what’s your thoughts, what do you think white people here need, folks that might be multiracial with whiteness as heritage, indigenous with whiteness as some, and what are the competencies?” So that’s another thing is in the book.
And actually on my website, backslash leading, so it’s drkathyobear.com/leading all the worksheets. I think there’s at least 50 plus other things, videos. All my four books are free. And so one of them is 96 skills I call, I think, racial equity skills for leaders or something. And so I want these co-conveners to say, “These are the competencies that we really want to focus on.” Share that with these other folk of call indigenous folks and say, “Are we close, or are there other things you think we should be working on because you deal with us every day?” So I don’t know if I got close to the skepticism that we’re just going to have a complaint session or just be reading books and so we’re more knowledgeable, or coddle each other and be white saviors, but this is about changing our behaviors.

Crystal Lay:
Because I think sometimes it’s like, “Oh, a book club just started,” right? Bad thing happened, book club. Or it’s the group feels secretive. And so I like this collaborative approach that you talk about, name what you’re doing and why, because to really dismantle, right, systems, and you have to be strategic, and you have to have many faces and identities around the table. So I’m appreciative of that. So this is a housing podcast, right? So why do you think racial justice should matter to housing professionals? And then, how might a resident’s life department incorporate this book into their practice?

Kathy Obear:
How much time you got? When I was last time in housing, it was almost 35 years ago. I don’t remember clear expectations. I just thought this was like Girl Scout camp. You get paid to just kind of have fun, and train people, and do programming, and go up into the mountains in Colorado and have a leadership retreat. And so when I work with leaders these days, whatever level, it’s like, “What are the competencies?” And so also on my website, this is a list of 12. When George Floyd was murdered, I realized when I got calls to calls, I’m sure you did, I was like, “I hadn’t been clear that if you’re committed to these competencies as leaders and you’re going to embed these into hiring and performance, then I’ll work with you. But if this is just because you’re feeling guilty or you’re trying to have Black people not be mad,” right?

Crystal Lay:
Right.

Kathy Obear:
So housing folk, what are your competencies that you expect from student staff, peer leaders, quote, “all the way up through your executive director,” freight and inclusive racially just climate, recognize racist microaggressions, interrupt them, change your policies and programs to make sure they are inclusive and don’t perpetuate stereotypes and white privilege so that’s just a few of them I would throw out. So if you get clear what your expectations are, serve the full breadth of students, particularly those underserved in programing conflict, then you can say, “So how you develop your capacity?” But if you want to stay here much less move up, you need to have these competencies in this white academy group is one of many ways for you to develop those competencies. And so why should Res Life? Why should racial justice matter? Tell them where I’m wrong. You’re having more racially minoritized folk, monoracial, multiracial indigenous folk.
I think you told me almost 50% were first gen, that that’s not always an intersection, but it’s more often than not given the centuries of history of racism and classism in the U.S., and so are our student, quote, “career staff.” I just heard that at lunch instead of professional staff, career staff, really prepared to work with increasingly racial class diversity among our students. You’re an HSI. So what does that mean besides a check the box? And so the dynamics of race and racism are on our campuses, even if it was all white people, because then white folk deserve the space to recognize our assumptions of superiority, our beliefs, like I said, a folk of color deficit, and then how those get into our practices. So we need that space to do it. Why should it matter? Because I don’t think you can be a housing professional today if you don’t have an anti-racist lens. If you’re not intentionally creating racially inclusive, racially just, and trans justice, and disability justice.
And so if folks say, “Why are you doing it?” Well, let’s start the next step. We’ve been doing breadth of diversity for decades now. Not much has changed. So let’s do an in-depth work on race and dismantling racism. The same similar concepts, skills, practices. Then we’ll maybe spend a couple years looking at gender identity, and then disability, and then religion. So you can keep doing other identities, and then you start to see the intersections. But in the US context, without a centeredness of race, I don’t know if we’ll ever get the work done around student success. I’m noticing more… I’m sorry.

Crystal Lay:
No, no, no. I wholeheartedly agree with you. And I’m hearing pieces about it’s not just when folks get there, it’s the recruitment, it’s the retention, like, “If you want to be a part of this department, here’s what we’re about. And so what is the learning that you’re going to do on your own to be here?” But then also the learning that is necessary to really carry out our mission is to provide these spaces where students and staff can feel like this is home, and they feel psychologically safe. And we have to ask tough questions. And again, like you said earlier, it’s not about people feeling bad or guilty, like, “That, your guilt does not help me,” right?

Kathy Obear:
No.

Crystal Lay:
And so, I love where you’re going with this. It has to be intentional, and really, it touches every piece of how we operate. Yeah.

Kathy Obear:
To be able to have wide accountable groups that might be your top leadership first two, three, four layers. And maybe they do it as a part of their professional development for a year, so it’s a required. And then maybe for other folk, you offer them that aren’t required unless you build it like an RA course where you really look at what was your socialization, what were the race statutes around you, what were the behaviors and microaggressions? Did you ever speak up? Why not? Fight, flight, freeze, flounder? What are your stress reactions? And then, how do you choose courage practice skills to do?
So we already do conflict resolution. We already do microaggressions work, infusing, keeping race centered, while maybe you do other intersecting identities too. So it’s not just over here, we’re doing it. It’s into all the RA, all the career staff training, and there’s a place for white folk, white adjacent folk to come together to say, “Okay, I’m scared to ask this question. And our senior leader is a person of color, so I’m really not, but I feel stuck where…”
Now, I don’t think white folks… I don’t want them to start there. Maybe you can, but I want them to do that socialization, racist, microaggressions, internalized beliefs about where. I want them to do some of that inner healing work and go, “Oh.” And what practices actually perpetuate white privilege and unproductive whiteness culture?
Let me be clear. I think there’s some nice things about white culture. If I’m having a heart attack, I want someone to be an urgency not over urgency. And I do think there’s a role for getting things done in a certain amount of time, but not a rigid time. So it’s not that all white culture is bad dominant culture, but if it’s the only right way, and particularly my guess is especially being in Northern Arizona, and I know this might go out to many schools, but has the Res Life Housing staff there thought about what are some of the indigenous ways of learning, being leading, even if leading is a word, just community, and how do we incorporate or how do we go out and meet with tribal leaders to say, “How are we supporting the students on campus, and is it the culture and the climate and how we… And I know other people listening may not have a strong indigenous region, much less student-based staff faculty, but one reason we’re not necessarily hiring is, of course, we’re still hiring in a very white culture basis way and the culture and climate.
So how to incorporate it? You do these accountability groups and not only that interpersonal skill, but then you start to look at our culture, our norms, our unwritten rules, and then how we do all of our policies and how could we analyze and unconsciously perpetuating whites into privilege, RA selection. When I think about how I used to organize and do that, geez, Louise, white people, extroverted, I could keep going. I’ll pause.

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, we have these markers, and when we use the word fit, that is not okay, right? Do they fit? What are we looking for in this candidate? And fit is very much tied to words like professionalism, which ties back to whiteness, in my opinion.
So I think one of the things you talked about too is the importance of location. Where is your institution located? Who are the students who are living on your campus? Where are they coming from, and what are some of the cultural norms or things that we can incorporate to create this home-away-from-home experience? And how are the policies, and procedures, and things we are putting forward potentially creating barriers for folks to feel like it’s home or they feel safe or welcome on our campus? And those are things I think we should be continuously asking ourselves as housing professionals that again, we’re trying to recreate this home experience with people coming from different ideologies, upbringing, socialization, and we plop them all together in a building and say, “Get along.”
And so my question, though, for you, Kathy, is now you mentioned senior leaders coming together and potentially doing this first. Now, I think there’s this piece of… There’s an expectation that folks have. You are a senior leader. You have made it, you have this title. You know all the things. And then, when you don’t know all the things, I am surprised. How did you get that role?
So there’s one side, but the other side, I think there might be senior leaders who have not done the work. They’ve maybe been in the field for a long time. When I entered the field, diversity was very much a side item. It wasn’t woven into everything. It was an office, or a person, or a trainee. So what is your advice for senior leaders? Maybe it’s imposter syndrome. “I don’t know this stuff. I’m a white person. I don’t know this stuff. These things are happening. How do I react?” How can this book help, or what are some thoughts do you have for folks to just like, “Just get over it and learn this stuff?”

Kathy Obear:
Kind of a both end there because I relate to. I’m probably aging out of some of the senior leaders in housing. I’m in my mid-60s. So there are still some, I think, of my generation hanging around, but I’ll bet more people in their 50s. But even then, these white leaders may not have had much work beyond, like you said, multicultural diversity. And so that fear of making mistake, being seen as racist, doing it wrong, I know I should be hiring a more racially diverse, but I don’t know besides getting people here, what I can do. So I would love to look at the national organizations. I haven’t seen. They may be doing it, whether it’s ACUHO-I, ACPA, NASPA, ACUI, which isn’t… I mean, they’re not all housing, but some of your housing folks are going to be going other. Are they doing intentional work with senior leaders who are white doing their own white accountable groups? Wouldn’t that be great?

Crystal Lay:
Yes.

Kathy Obear:
And then, a regional approach might be interesting because on a campus, there’s all kinds of politics, and you’re going after the same money. There may not be safety. So in the region, so half of Arizona up that you all whatever your ACUHO-I region-

Crystal Lay:
AMO?

Kathy Obear:
… you just say, “Let’s do it.” AMO.

Crystal Lay:
Yep.

Kathy Obear:
I remember AMO. That was my first keynote, 1984. It might’ve been the student leadership related to AMO. But anyway, and so can they do one so that the willing white folk… And let me be clear, I want to have one for folk of color, indigenous folk. So if you’re investing time, money, resources, and even if it’s not costing anything, those white folks are getting to know each other. And so when there’s a job opening, they’re going to be calling. So I want to make sure there’s parallel healing work and empowerment work put out by an AMO. So that idea of a space.
Now, if there’s enough people on a campus or if the dynamics are such, I actually think a campus-focused one can be powerful because then it’s like, “Well, we just had this meeting and we made this decision. We didn’t use a race lens. Next meeting, let’s look at these questions and redo it,” or, “Let’s look at our data and come up with the leadership case why it’s critical that white folks have to develop these capacities and unlearn.” So I think there’s a benefit to many ways, but clearly… And when I say senior leaders, it might be the executive director of housing in the next couple layers or student affairs if you all are, but you all might be over an auxiliary. So it might be the financial officer getting a number of folk because if they don’t do it, then the folks that are residence directors, area coordinators, they’re going to look up and go, “But my leader just said something racist, and I can’t call them.” So got to be the line of supervision eventually.
But to start, I like to go for the willing. So if somebody’s listening, the book, I think, has worksheets, activities. On also the website, I just finished up 12 sessions where I taught these concepts with a live audience. And so some of the great ideas came from participants. So if you’re more of a visual audio learner, it’s not everything in the book, but it’s a nice parallel or companion, and see if you can find some pretty good facilitators that are white that also have competence around anti-racism. And the book could be a nice supplement. You don’t have to be perfect to do it. It’s like, “Hey, this isn’t bad stuff. Let’s try it.”

Crystal Lay:
I love that. And everything is free. That’s so giving. And I also named… I think sometimes when you see diversity work focused on race by white folks, it’s like, “Okay, where’s your money going? Are you benefiting from…” And so that’s one of the things I’ve always appreciated about you is putting those resources out there for folks to utilize. And so, I just wanted to name that piece.
I want to ask you. So by nature of our work in housing, we’re always helping… I feel like we’re always helping students navigate identity-related pieces. I need a couple more hands to count how often race comes up, whether it be just a conversation, a roommate conflict, or engaging with someone like someone today where it’s like, “Oh, I don’t see race.” I’m like, “Here we go. Textbook definition.” True story. I won’t share any more of that.
So it’s a part of our work, right? We come across it. So if we have an RA watching, for instance, and they’re like, “Oh, this website looks cool. I’m going to pull this worksheet to use with this roommate issue,” what’s your advice about that? The folks who just want to kind of pull a worksheet or take something because that feels like that’s probably not the best route to go.

Kathy Obear:
Were you around me when I was in residence life? That’s what I used to do. I was assistant director. I was like, “What’s the latest fun activity to put in an RA class?” I was not a thoughtful, planful, strategic facilitator. I grew into this. So my recommendation would be to do it yourself first. I even say this in the book to co-conveners. Don’t just pull people together, and find something, and do it. Do it yourselves first. So spend a couple of sessions talking about socialization, and the racist attitudes, and behaviors, and what you might still believe is around you today in you. If you’re going to do microaggressions, make sure you all talk about your own, and what you’ve done, and the racist attitudes that fuel them. So do it yourself first. So I’m not sure this work is for peer student leaders to do on their floors, though I don’t want to say no because that could sound ageist.
What I wonder is if grad assistants, GA’s, RDs for sure their development, and also thinking about how might we also bring this in with the RAs because we’re doing career development here. The skills the understanding that students across all racialized indigenous identities need to be successful when they leave can be developed in these accountability groups, white accountability and then folk of color, indigenous affinity spaces.
So for me, that’s one of the reasons to do it. But I would start out maybe a senior top two or three layers and then some RDs and grads, or maybe if you have enough grads and RDs, separate hierarchical dynamics. And then, after they’ve gone… I don’t know, eight 12 sessions to go. Okay, what we want to do next, but can we take some of this back to the peer leaders and RAs that we work with, the student leaders and RHA, and those sorts of things is how could we take some of this, particularly the skills of interrupting racist microaggressions and policies and practices and how we use money with a race lens to make sure that there’s parity equity and not over-supporting white groups or programs and activities that actually white people want to go to?
And it’s like we’re not giving monies to student groups of color and indigenous groups. So it’s that sort of practical that I could see, particularly the student leaders, RAs could see that these are career skills, and then they might go, “Okay, yeah, I do want to attend something like that.”

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, I like that. I think you have to scale it, right? Is it developmentally appropriate? What are these students going to take away from some of these intense conversations? And then we’re asking them to unlearn 18-19 years of things, and it may not always land well. So I think it goes back to your earlier piece about who’s facilitating, how, have you done this yourself, and then what is developmentally appropriate, but then also not trying to pacify or water down the seriousness of this. And also, I think the really cool, life-changing moments that can happen over time as you begin to engage in your own learning and unlearning as well.
So, Kathy, you end your book with the following quote, “Unlearning racism is a lifelong process of healing and re-education. I hope you choose to stay in it for the long haul.” What does support look like for white folks who are unlearning and committed to being in it for the long haul?

Kathy Obear:
That we’re never done. And so even if folks are like, “Let me be a kind of assistant co-convener and learn this,” then they might co-convene a few. And then they’re like, “Maybe I’ll go back to be a participant,” or, “How can I get some other folks?” So you’re just never done, whether you make sure that when you’re doing Netflix or Peacock, I’ve been noticing things on Peacock, at least for me, the books I read, not my fiction outside in the sun. So I make sure that I use much of my time to continue learning and growing. Not all. I also go to women’s basketball, but you can have a race lens at women’s basketball too.
And so intentionally going, what don’t I know whether it’s watching the news and realizing, “Ooh, I don’t know about that.” And so having… That’s what I think a benefit of a white accountability series of groups that you might be in, whether it’s a community one or a campus one, to find more colleagues that you can then be talking with, hanging out with, somebody you can call and say or text and go, “I just said this something racist. Help me think about how I go back, make amends, how I can be more intentional next time.” And so a community of colleagues who you can support each other, not only in the group but moving out.
There are folks that have moved on, but people tell me, “I still call this person who’s now 2000 miles away because we built a bond and a connection to authenticity and bravery.” So it’s not a book club. It’s not a video club. It’s real honest work to unlearn and then to say, “Huh, roommate conflict.” Because I’ll bet roommates come talk to you. Folk of color will bring up race because they see you, and they much less you…
If it’s a white director, the student of color might be sitting back until the white person says something like… So it’s my understanding your roommate is white, and my guess is you identify as a person of color. So my guess is there’s some race dynamics in addition to some other dynamics that may not be something you feel comfortable talking with me about. But I can’t tell you how many times race dynamics play in or racial attitudes. So just curious if you want to.
So how can white people not push race off the table but actually put it on the table until it’s clear? Actually, it’s not a center issue. It’s 5% of the issue. I remember Verna Wall said that race is always in the room, whether it’s 80% of the dynamic or five white people to be able to have the capacity to say. By group membership, this decision, how’s it going to impact the indigenous students, other students of color, particularly those who are first gen, those who might also have some disabilities, those who are economically well-established in their family and yet experienced racism?
So looking at the intersections, the queer folk of color, having white folks take responsibility to share the responsibility to raise issues of race and not have folk of color indigenous folks have to be the one to always. Because if we expect you, there’s no time for you to talk about anything else, and so we pigeonhole you. And then when you need a director, it’s like, “Okay, where’s the white person we need to hire? As opposed to, let’s look at actually folk of color, often much more competent. How’s this than many white people?”

Crystal Lay:
And I think it’s the… It normalizes these conversations of, “Let’s talk about it.” I think it’s when folks say, “I don’t see race,” but you see my height, you see my eye color, you see all these other things about me except this brown shade that is clearly there. Because when my team, if roommate conflicts escalate, they get to director level, I am always asking and thinking, “What is their identities? Could anything else be going on here?” And it’s so helpful that before this gets all the way up to me…

Kathy Obear:
Yes, get it here.

Crystal Lay:
Right. How do we ask that question in a way that we can legally… Depending on where you’re located in the politics, but there are always ways to have these conversations within the landscape that you are in. So I’m so grateful for our time together.

Kathy Obear:
Thank you.

Crystal Lay:
And there’s a trust piece too I want to name. I trust you, and I know we can have these conversations because of the work you do and the human that you are. And so I think for folks listening, I think naming that trust is really important in these spaces. And how do you work to build that? And you give some really cool tools on how do you set that up, how do you begin to build that so folks can ask these questions that may be scary, and they can also show up as their authentic selves in these spaces.
So, Kathy, if folks are wanting to learn more about white accountability groups or whiteness or anything that you talk about with racial justice, are there recommendations that you have?

Kathy Obear:
There are so many resources you can Google, and it’s almost overwhelming. And so, I like Dr. Robin DiAngelo’s work. I like Caste, Isabel Wilkerson, Some of Us, Heather McGhee. So for white folk to be reading some other white folks on that, but also… And also, make sure it’s kind a both-end. So if you are doing a reading group, nothing against reading groups, it’s not enough. But if that’s where you’re starting, each week, make sure you got a chapter from at least two books. One from person of color, one from white person, possibly so that we’re really learning from and with all my materials, kathyobear.com, dr.kathyobear.com/leading, L-E-A-D-I-N-G, lots of resources there. There are a lot of good videos. Dr. Bettina Love has several things that are video. I mean, it’s almost like you can’t Google and find really good stuff.
Now, there are folk out there that are trying to make a buck and not do good work. Now, there are folks that are getting compensated for the work, and I think also are doing really good work. So people can email me five other books. I have these up here. I haven’t read them all, but you can tell I don’t always have a good short-term memory. My Grandmother’s Hands by Menakem. Do you want to do stuff around healing work? Of course, the 1619 project, if you want some history, anything by Kenji, Ibram Kendi.
So I would encourage people, white people, take that self-assessment and see, “Oh, I don’t know much about history,” so do some history. “Wait, I don’t do self-work.” So gather some people to do some socialization and some of the racist. I have so many worksheets. What are the racist attitudes? I don’t know how… Microaggressions, I got pages of them. It’s not complete. So it’s like where are you weak and develop that skill while you’re also working with people to share what you know and with humility.

Crystal Lay:
Thank you so much.

Kathy Obear:
Thank you so much.

Crystal Lay:
Thank you.

Kathy Obear:
This was fun.

Crystal Lay:
Cool. This was fun, and I learned a lot. And I’m hoping… And I know folks will learn a lot as well. So I want to thank everyone for tuning in with us. Lots of great resources here, lots of good conversation. And if you have a topic or a person that you would like us to connect with, please reach out to Roompact and let us know so we can connect with them as well. Thank you all for hanging out with us and take care.